Veganism Vs Vegetarianism

[lizards]

There are a number of quite different reasons why people choose either one of these diets, health, religious or spiritual belief, as well as political or moral choice. In fact both vegetarians as well as vegans, I use the terms as they are commonly used and understood, seem to have precisely the same admixture of views as each other, yet they often seem to come to a different conclusion.

Many vegans were once vegetarians, a lot of vegans become vegetarian after trying veganism. I'm interested in seeing what the views are of the people on this forum on this subject.

I commonly come across the view that vegetarians are on the right path but not there yet, the more extreme form of this view seems to think that as vegetarians realise that there are moral objections they are far worse than the common omnivore, who may perhaps be excused as ignorant on the subject, conversely, some vegetarians seem to view veganism as a repugnant form of fundamentalism and liken it to some sort of self flagellation, and while they accept that there are problems with the current production of animal products believe these can be solved in ethical ways.

I suppose this is more directed at those that have come to their decision, at least partly, via the idea of animal welfare and morality. I know this can be a controversial subject, but that dosen't make it any less interesting or pertinent.

Anyway, what are the reasons why you become either a vegan or vegetarian? How do you consider others who have made a somewhat different decision to you?

I personally believe that it is up to the individual to consider the issues and come to their own informed choice. That may seem a fairly lack----re statement, so I will enlarge on it if anyone is interested in this topic.

[kkdd (deleted)]

`I would agree that people do have the right to make personal choices, but only if it did not directly effect other sentient beings. I was a vegetarian for a long time, oblivious that consuming dairy had any moral implications - simply because of upbringing and convention (at least in my family). As humans with morality, how can we selectively justify the life of one animal compared to another? Personally I am not part of the "animal welfare" movement, but rather the "animal liberation" movement, which is more concerned with the independence of sentient creatures rather than the "kindest approach to subjugation" the welfarists are in favour of.

For me it is as simple as this; if one has the choice to harm/kill an animal, or not to, which sane human would purposely set out to cause more harm than necessary? It has long since been established that we thrive on plant-based diets without the need of any animal-derived ingredients or so-called "animal protein". It is simply a matter of will power, I find that most people do not have the resolve to give up luxuries like cheese or pizza.

I am glad that there are vegetarians, only to the extent that their reasons are of virtue and morality as opposed to health etc. And if their will is really to minimize harm to third-parties (animals), they will eventually turn vegan as it is the next logical step. I too used to think that veganism was a fundamentalist view a few years ago before doing any further reading. It's just the main stream opinion propagated by the media.

If one turns vegan simply for health reasons, even though that would make me glad, I would say there are better, less selfish reasons in terms of morality.

Just my opinion, sorry if I've struck a nerve with any health-oriented vegans!

[kkdd (deleted)]

`Oh wow I just realised my reply is only 11 months overdue! Too bad I wasn't a vegan back then, else I would have found this site earlier.

[aeriaronzo]

`(Although this post is fairly old)

Sometimes I feel like those stuck in the "transition" phase of vegetarianism (those who say they will stay vegetarian, and see no need to move to veganism - or that "One day I might go vegan, but I don't think it'll be any time soon" meaning never) are just in it for a title, some attention, and a feigned feeling of doing good in the world.

I'm rather saddened when many vegetarians refer to themselves as "animal rights" activists rather than the true "animal welfare" activists as well. I'm not against people being vegetarian, but I think making the distinction between the two is crucial.

There seems to be a major difference, at least to me, between the omnivores who blindly and unknowingly support a cruel industry vs. the vegetarians who know the facts but continue to support it anyway. In this case, who pertains to the greater evil? Is it those who feed inhumane acts of animal cruelty unknowingly, or those who do it knowingly but rationalize otherwise? Personally, I believe it is the latter, not the former, who acts with greater hypocrisy and indecency.

[robbli]

`I was vegetarian for a while until about 4 years ago I became more aware of the dairy industry and the basic fact we are the only living creatures on this planet to consume milk from another animal in vast quantities. Plus the dairy industry is just as horrific as the meat industry is in my view.

I think it's important not to mock or look down upon vegetarians, I really dislike this preachy or militant attitude some vegans have with no tolerance what so ever. I think it's all about making an effort no matter how large or small to your suited lifestyle and environment.

[charles72vegan (deleted)]

aeriaronzo wrote: `(Although this post is fairly old)

Sometimes I feel like those stuck in the "transition" phase of vegetarianism (those who say they will stay vegetarian, and see no need to move to veganism - or that "One day I might go vegan, but I don't think it'll be any time soon" meaning never) are just in it for a title, some attention, and a feigned feeling of doing good in the world.

I'm rather saddened when many vegetarians refer to themselves as "animal rights" activists rather than the true "animal welfare" activists as well. I'm not against people being vegetarian, but I think making the distinction between the two is crucial.

There seems to be a major difference, at least to me, between the omnivores who blindly and unknowingly support a cruel industry vs. the vegetarians who know the facts but continue to support it anyway. In this case, who pertains to the greater evil? Is it those who feed inhumane acts of animal cruelty unknowingly, or those who do it knowingly but rationalize otherwise? Personally, I believe it is the latter, not the former, who acts with greater hypocrisy and indecency.

I definitely agree with your post. Those vegans/vegetarians who may not practice animal cruelty themselves but who tacitly condone it by not condemning it strongly enough are the ones who really make angry. Yeah, the meat eaters are absolute monsters but at least they aren't hypocrites. However, when I see a vegan going on all day about how much he or she loves animals and how much they want to end their suffering and then in a different conversation admit that they socialize heavily with meat-eaters or in some cases even defending the choice to eat meat as being just as moral as veganism it really saddens, disappoints, and angers me. I would expect vegans and most vegetarians to somehow have more integrity than that and to stick to their principles even if it costs them in terms of their personal popularity. Apparently for some "veggies" it is only worthwhile to help animals if it is popular to do so.

[atropa]

`
Undoubtably consumption of milk from any other species than human is abhorrent no matter how you look at it. It's unnatural, cruel and unhealthy.
I agree with aeriaronzo with regard to those who stagnate in vegetarianism. However for some, vegetarianism can be a stepping stone to progressing to a vegan diet. Many only begin to realise how grotesque the bovine milk industry is once their minds are distanced from the focus of the guilt of eating rotting carcasses. It is the stagnation that is the problem and these people may need a nudge or push in the right direction.
Not sure about not mixing with meat heads (charles72vegan), ok so they are a vile bunch but they may be of benefit. Obviously there is no point harping on about the cruelty involved in meat and dairy production, but by attacking the health risks associated with consuming bovine milk products, namely cardiovascular dissorders, osteoporosis and cancer, it is possible to change peoples perception of dairy. In addition, putting the onus on them to justify dairy consumption rather than having to explain why not. It is far easier for these people to change to alternatives to milk and I have found many readilly do so. It's all about creating fear within their minds (you know the same way the state does it). Most would never contemplate vegetarianism let alone veganism on an ethical basis, but by avoiding dairy are actively assisting the destruction of the meat industry, which will also in turn cause the destruction of the dairy industry.

[longislandvegan]

`I didn't read through all of the replies..sorry

I have no problem with vegetarians as long as they don't consider themselves cruelty free or consider themselves animal rights activists.

You CANNOT run around screaming "Meat is Murder" while willfully consuming the products of, torture and murder.

[janeswomb (deleted)]

`Hi,

I don't have any problem with those who are not vegan. I don't feel as though I cannot associate with others because we have different practices and beliefs. I've heard vegans claim to feel nauseous over the smell of meat and I love the smell. For me, it is a point of being conscious about both human and animal rights, and I have made a commitment only to vegetarianism until my son is returned to me. The rest is voluntary. From that commitment I didn't expect to become vegan but I found out cows are kept pregnant all that time to deliver milk and I felt sorry for the cows. So I quit eggs and dairy. I saw no problem with honey and bee pollen and think it's beneficial but to challenge myself, I opted out. My food and drink have been free of animal products for almost 1 year now. I am currently extending to healthcare products so I am using what I have of sunscreen that contains beeswax and then I'll buy another kind and I last bought maskara that contains no beeswax (carnuba). My other products are animal-free. I have thought about my clothing because I wanted silk to stay warm and then I realized this is from a silkworm, just recently, so I'll get rid of this and get something else. I thought to myself, "Oh my...what am I turning into? a hemp-cloth canvas?" and had a sigh of relief that cotton is not from an animal.

[janeswomb (deleted)]

I might add, I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but I am much more particular about what goes into my body than what is outside of it. For example, I quit honey and bee pollen immediately, even though I had some in stock at my house, I didn't use it up first. I have kept some grains of bee pollen and some honey as a reminder I guess, not sure why, but I don't use it. On the other hand, I found this sunscreen with beeswax in it and I don't feel as instictive about needing to throw it out. I feel rather, that I will use the rest of it so it's not to waste, and then buy new sunscreen. My silk clothing I will give away.

I was thinking about this though--why did I sense it was imperative to not have animal products in my body but it's not as much a big deal that I had a few things outside? In that regard it has been an instinctive sensing or following what I feel is right for me at the time, not exactly knowing why I feel one thing is okay and the other is not.